ROASTING THE POPE



STEPHEN HUGH-JONES | ON LANGUAGE AND LIFE | November 23rd 2007

Never discount the strength of other people's gut feelings, especially in matters of religion, says Stephen Hugh-Jones--who admits to a touch of old-fashioned English anti-papism himself ...

Special to MORE INTELLIGENT LIFE

So the 950-year-old rift between the Roman Catholic church and the Orthodox may be patched up: the Pope and his cardinals are meeting on November 23rd to discuss a document to that end. If I were Satan, I'd be laughing all the way to the stokehole: artificial unity is a splendid way of creating its opposite. But what gets my adrenalin flowing is the words Roman Catholic.

My childhood home was in a Scottish village. My "uncle" was an elder of the kirk. His English wife, my godmother, was an Anglican. So most Sundays the household went to the Presbyterian village church, but occasionally to an Episcopal one in the town nearby. The differences caused not a tremor in its harmony.

Just what divided the two sects I never grasped. Bishops, of course, different forms of service, and a few peculiarities of behaviour thereat. Anglicans crossed themselves, Presbyterians didn't. Anglicans knelt to say their prayers, Presbyterians merely leant forward in their seats. Hence the Presbyterian gibe;

The Pisky prays upon his knees,
His back he winna bend,
Because he darena meditate
Upon his latter end.

But all was good-humoured.

Not so the local view of Roman Catholicism. For us English, hostility sprang from ancient politics. The little history I learned at school taught me of Mary Tudor, the bigot whose five-year reign saw some 300 Protestants put to death; of papal efforts to unthrone the queen of England, her successor Elizabeth I; of Catholic Spain and its Armada; of Catholic Guy Fawkes plotting to blow up Parliament; of James II trying to reinstate his Catholicism in a country that had rejected it. Why all this should matter 300 or 400 years later I did not ask.

Scottish Presbyterians, truer heirs of Martin Luther and the Reformation, had deeper reasons. To some, the Pope was next door to Antichrist. That didn't much bother them, so long as he stayed there. Yet at one point on the road to Glasgow, a wall bore in white-painted letters five feet high the message HELL ROST THE POP. Its spelling apart, not a few Scots would have agreed.

A few years later the minister of the kirk was, in effect, forced out. Not because he used a few phrases from the Anglican prayer-book, and thus originally, in Latin, the Roman one: I doubt his congregation knew that. His offence was more obscure.

The church's worn-out organ stood at its east end, behind the communion table. A replacement was found, but too large to go there. Put it at the side, in one of the transepts, he suggested. Why, growled some who maybe had other bones to pick with him? Does Mr Potts want to shift the Lorrrd's Table backward into the east end, where the Romans have it?--(a move which, today, Rome is busily reversing). He found it expedient to seek a call elsewhere.

All this in an area not remote, not backward, not notably religious, in the mid 20th century. I doubt that educated Roman Catholics there much cared: if you know you are right, why be worried by those who think not? Nor did my uncle. Yet lower in Scottish society such sentiments, though mostly buried, even now are not dead. You'll see the ethnic divide--I won't call it religious--whenever Glasgow's top football clubs play each other: Celtic, the Catholic (and Irish) one, in their green shirts, against Rangers, the Protestants. Football today spans the globe. Yet as late as 1989 some fans, on both sides, were enraged when Rangers signed a noted Catholic, ex-Celtic player.

And here's a confession. Having no perceptible faith myself, I'm unworried by other people's. I've worked happily with colleagues of every major Christian kind--Jews, Parsis, Hindus and Muslims, for that matter. I'm glad to know an Anglican church that has a Catholic chapel inside it. I think it entirely right that Ireland's Catholic majority at last won a state of their own, wrong as I think their efforts to force it on Northern Ireland's Protestants. Yet my childhood prejudices aren't dead either. When the late Pope John Paul created saints by the busload, my only logical comment would have been, "That's his business". It was in fact, "How absurd."

Still more so when history, however long past, is involved. When I read that the current Pope may canonise yet more of the English Catholics--40 have haloes already--claimedly martyred under Protestant monarchs, why should I care? Yet my reaction is, "What about Bloody Mary's victims?" When a wave of Anglican priests switched to Rome in the early 1990s, Britain's leading Catholic, Cardinal Basil Hume, a usually wise man, permitted himself the comment that this might be the start of "the conversion of England for which we have all prayed." My hair bristled. Have you, I thought? So the leopard hasn't changed its spots.

And when the Vatican and sundry Catholic parties wanted God written into the might-be constitution of the European Union, my true objection was not to God but to his sponsors. I wholly prefer Jesus Christ's view of "the woman taken in adultery" to the Islamic one. Yet, if ever I had to choose between the Pope and the ayatollahs, though I'd opt for the Pope I'd do it with gritted teeth.

I don't think this visceral hostility is sensible, let alone in an unbeliever. No one is trying to ram Catholicism down my throat. Yet, however little it may affect my actions, my prejudice is a fact--after 60-odd years, in a man reasonably educated, still tolerably intelligent, in a largely secular society, in the 21st century.

There are warnings in this for people like me who see human reason and conscience as better guides to modern life than are ancient scriptures, however admirable. First, that we too may be leopards. Second, that if our gut feelings are that durable, we are unwise if we discount the strength of other people's.

ON LANGUAGE AND LIFE  

Comments

Certainly not sensible


I empathise and agree with Mr. Hugh-Jones. As an atheist, I often tell myself that caring about other people believing in God is like caring if they believe they have monsters under their bed. It should make no difference to my interaction with them.
And yet I can't help feeling slightly hostile and even uneasy whenever I do meet someone religious-I've to stop myself from pointing out how utterly silly I think their behaviour is. I fear that my atheism, which is supposed to be rational, is making me less so.

Roasting the Pope


I guess old feelings die hard, but I cannot resist quoting the story about the graffiti in a particularly dismal part of Belfast, where someone had painted "No Pope Here!" on a wall, and underneath some wag had scrawled: "Lucky Old Pope!"

Roasting the Pope


Those of us with "no perceptible faith," as Stephen puts it, actually belong to a special sort of religion I call apatheism.

The apatheists' credo is simple: "We don't know and we don't care." Traditional religious questions simply have no particular personal interest to us any longer.

Perhaps because the main virtue of apatheism is tolerance, we can proudly say that apatheists have been responsible for no known incidents of genocide, political persecution, or the execution of those who have different beliefs.

Based on what passionate religionists brought us in the 20th century, the 21st century is one that truly needs more apatheists.

who roasts whom?


The Scottish church wasn't always quite the exemplar of sweetness and tolerance. There was a serious schism in the 1840s over whether the clergy should be appointed by the lairds or by the parishioners. The rhyme "the free kirk, the wee kirk, the kirk without the steeple/ the auld kirk, the cauld kirk/ the kirk without the people" dates from about this time but as recently as 1989, the Lord Chancellor (Mackay?) was excommunicated for attending a Catholic service after a friend's funeral.

Religionists brought us..


In the 20th century,"Religionists" brought us a functioning system of schools and hospitals, an end to communism, an end to Nazism, and a functioning world market. What have the apatheists brought us except apathy?

JBP

Apatheists brought us...


Actually it was the apatheists -- and atheists, though it wasn't politic to admit to that -- who brought us science, and with it the civilisation which has made life something more than the nasty, painful brutish and short experience that most of our ancestors had to go through. While the religionists were praying for things to get better, the scientists were busy making them better.

Nazies weren't athiests


How did "Religionists"? bring an end to Nazism? Did the athiests opt out in the last world war? Also you seem to be following the wide spread misconception that Hitler was an athiest, he wasn't, in case the genocide of the Jews wasn't a big enough clue, in his book 'Mien Kampf' he says he is a catholic. And many of his speechs used religous themes to rally his troops.

Please check with Copernicus


Let's see, the scientific method was developed by clerics. Quite a bit of scientific discovery from Copernican Astronomy to radio astronomy and particle physics was developed and paid for by "religionists". The very foundations of the modern economy (credit, communications etc) have much of their root in Monasticism.

There is no sensible person denying that there have been great atheist scientists. How is it that atheists can get away with the denial that Religion has played a huge role in science and civilization?

JBP

I thought the Nazi were


I thought the Nazi were christians "technically".
How exactly did religion end the nazis??

Try this book


Sacred Causes by Michael Burleigh. He has a good discussion of the supposed Christianity of the Nazi's.

JBP

I don't think this visceral


I don't think this visceral hostility is sensible, let alone in an unbeliever. No one is trying to ram Catholicism down my throat. Yet, however little it may affect my actions, my prejudice is a fact—after 60-odd years, in a man reasonably educated, still tolerably intelligent, in a largely secular society, in the 21st century.

****

There's none of us that aren't products of our time & place. No one was fashioned by sheer reason alone.

Thought of the day - An


Thought of the day - An atheist will never get to say "I told you so!"...

Just wanted to thank you for


Just wanted to thank you for this thoughtful post. I've had similar feelings, but in reverse, as I'm a practicing Catholic. It's hard to look within and recognize the things we struggle with for what they are, but it's the first step on the road to understanding and compassion for others.

Re: Apatheists brought us...


Jon's comment is very simply wrong. Historically, it is demonstrably wrong. How muddleheaded can someone be to believe, and say publicly, that all scientists are without religious belief, and no "religionists" are practicing scientists? This is ignorance or prejudice or both.

Atheism/belief/social change


I am a believer and a Member of The Episcopal Church USA, but I have to say, in all of the virulent discussions among American church people of every stripe, that I feel more trust in atheists and agnostics, than I do my own fellow religious persons. We religionists are often given to hysteria and dangerous delusions--and that is precisely what frightens me about the papacy. (The concept not the particular man.) Often, the "absolute truth of revelation" consists in ones ability to align ones personal delusions with doctrine that is suported by official dogma. Hence many cry "Praise the Lord" if an official denounces creationism. But the same person cries "Apostate! Antichrist!" if the same religious authority then goes on to admit that there are two creation stories. In any event, never have Christians been so prone to be in their own little world of religious fancy...only now the fancies run to the hostile and deeply political and invasively personal.
Yet I am a Christian, for the Christ, and for his real Saints, (Christian and non-Christian saints). But it doesn't matter to anyone else. At least I have the 1928 prayer book to lull me into my own haven of spiritual reality--that, please God, bless many and offend none...and I must admit...that I am a pagan-like Christian in this....but...let the evangelicals evangelize!

The truth of the matter is


The truth of the matter is that man is irrational. Oh, we can be logical and intelligent when it suits us, but it rarely does, and the authors confession of emotiohal conviction is a perfect example of this. Our emotions are not to be discounted, but the nature of them entirely gives the game away.

What we commit to and what we really think are two different things

I am not saying that reason is no guide, but I am saying that we in point of fact refuse to be guided by reason: our emotions are proof of this, for our emotions are what and who we really are. One's aspirations and ones's attainment are never the same thing; and it is this gulf that makes hypocrites of all of us.

The divide between faith and reason invoked by evolutionists and atheists is a false one. Rather is the dividing line between our own discernment and our own foolishness.

I will then do the ratiohnal thing and trust the living God insofar as my self righteous irrationality of my own heart permits me to

visceral belief?


As for roasting the Pope, I only had need to do so when I felt threatened by Papal claims, that is to say when I in some degree believed in them even when rebelling against them.

But because the claims are false and I have finally repented of being drawn to the Roman Church, there is nothing to fear so nothing to denounce.

I suspect that visceral anticatholicism even from professed atheists is likely to be some deep sense of belief in catholicism down in the part of the person which really counts: the emotions

What the Presbyterians and


What the Presbyterians and others lost sense of is that the form of worship is irrelevant: it is the heart attitude.

To inject a little jocularity I might say "WHAT!! these people kneel? Donlt they know they are in the presene of the Holy and Terrible Emperor and Absolute Monarch of all?"

Wherein the appropriate posture is what the romans called (from the Greek)proskunesis. IOW prostrate, on your face!!

Regrettably Susan's attitude


Regrettably Susan's attitude is not uncommon amongst atheists many of whom bore those of us with religious beliefs by trying to undermine whatever faith we have. If someone mentions in conversation they're an atheist the last thing I'm interested in is a debate about religion. Live and let live and don't judge the centre by the extremes.